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Linux is an OS


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Linux is an OS, when we say Linux, we mean the entire OS encluding whatever the distribution included by default. We refer to the Linux kernel as just that, or just the kernel.
This group is readable only to members. This is in response to the "Linux is a kernel" group disallowing comments from non-members. Since I can't figure out how to do that here (comment if you know how), I'll just make it unreadable.

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Created:May 27 2008
Changed:May 28 2008
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 Linux is an OS.

 
 by lostintheshell on: Sep 8 2010
 
Score 50%

Linux is an OS, when we say Linux, we mean the entire OS encluding whatever the distribution included by default. We refer to the Linux kernel as just that, or just the kernel.
This group is readable only to members. This is in response to the "Linux is a kernel" group disallowing comments from non-members. Since I can't figure out how to do that here (comment if you know how), I'll just make it unreadable.

That's explain everything.

Linux is an OS it runs with a kernel and blah blah blah blah....


Linux is freedom, freedom to shut the windows forever.
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 Re: Linux is an OS.

 
 by Fri13 on: Sep 9 2010
 
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"That's explain everything."

How it explains things?


What is Linux and GNU/Linux?
http://tinyurl.com/532kb8
http://tinyurl.com/mum9x
http://tinyurl.com/ngarn8
http://tinyurl.com/qhuhg
http://tinyurl.com/3uaq48

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 Re: Re: Linux is an OS.

 
 by lostintheshell on: Sep 9 2010
 
Score 50%

Linux is an OS, true it's an operating system. It has a kernel, runs with it. This is the group for one believe that Linux is an OS, not for smart ppl calls others an idiot because we disagree with his opinion.


OS runs your machine, not runs money from your pocket.
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 Re: Re: Re: Linux is an OS.

 
 by Shinmaru on: Sep 9 2010
 
Score 50%

Are you talking about Fri13??
Because I think you're confusing him to the other guy that just shouts idiot this, idiot that without bringing in at least 1 nanogram of knowledge in order to defend his own arguments.
Fri13 has been bring only facts behind facts, he even mentioned what the kernel is, in this case a monolithic kernel, if it was a microkernel then in most arguments he would have been disregarded or dismissed.


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 Re: Re: Re: Linux is an OS.

 
 by Fri13 on: Sep 13 2010
 
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The Linux kernel is the operating system. There is no other "Linux" than the monolithic kernel.

The Linux distributions should not be called as "Linux" in the term of the OS. They are distributions and they all use Linux OS. Linux is specific OS.

It is like a car engine called Linux. And calling all cars from multiple manufacturers using that specific engine as the Linux is just wrong.

There is no "Linux's kernel" or "Kernel what Linux use". Linux is nothing what most people believe it is.


What is Linux and GNU/Linux?
http://tinyurl.com/532kb8
http://tinyurl.com/mum9x
http://tinyurl.com/ngarn8
http://tinyurl.com/qhuhg
http://tinyurl.com/3uaq48

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Linux is an OS.

 
 by adsicks on: Nov 27 2010
 
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This is off topic, but can I run command.com without io.sys and msdos.sys? Should I even attempt this in wine?!?!? If I run it in a vBox is it a TRUE OS or still just emulation?!?!?!?


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 More proof based on Linux func

 
 by Shinmaru on: Sep 10 2010
 
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Quote:
If moving an existing installation of Linux into a new computer or changing the motherboard or other hardware components, Linux will detect and activate the new supported hardware with little or no further intervention required.

this was found here "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Windows_and_Linux#Installation"
correct me if I'm wrong this is due to the fact that the kernel is monolithic, unlike microkernel that has part of the user-space running on the "kernel", a monolithic kernel can run and operate on his own without the "OS" or the user, unlike the microkernel that needs the part of the user to operate.


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 Re: More proof based on Linux func

 
 by Fri13 on: Sep 13 2010
 
Score 50%

The question can you change motherboard or other main component (processor) without causing OS to work is not just about the OS architecture being monolithic or Server-Client (microkernel).

The monolithic architecture has the advantage that you can actually compile the whole OS single binary what includes all the device drivers and all the possible hardware support what the OS has. Like what most Linux distributors does to Linux.

But even then, you need to compile Linux by the way that it supports specific architecture. I am not totally sure is it possible today to compile Linux with "no-arch" way. What would make that single binary work on PPC or x86 or x86_64 architectures. So as far I know, you can not change the architecture so much. (You can swap i586 architecture to i686 architecture as x86 is backward compatible. But not otherwise. And to optimize the Linux OS, you need to compile it to support the wanted architecture.

The motherboard is different story, as you need the chipsets support. And the low-level functions are in all same. But you might end up having problems with sound, networking or USB if you do not have such functions support compiled.

But as those are not about "this or that", but more like you can just compile all of them to Linux if wanted, the one binary is not tied to specific hardware and the motherboard change is easy to do.

But if wanted to get most secure and stable OS, you compile Linux only with the functions what the device has. That way you drop off the functions what are not needed and what could have bugs. But there is a small trick as well.

Even that Linux is monolithic, it is same time a modular OS. Since 2.2 version the OS is been able to have some parts as modules. And even that Linux is possible (and usually it is) to get run from multiple binaries (Linux + its modules), the monolithic architecture still is such that the module is very tighly tied to the specific kernel version. And here comes the tricky part, it is important to understand the Linux as monolithic kernel what is mostly the drivers, but only very small part of the Linux code is actual kernel code (less than 1%) and every module is tied to that small part. What makes so that people can not just compile modules itself and then move them to other different version of the Linux OS.

But the modularity is superior to single binary idea, that we can unload the OS functions what are not needed, but when they are needed, we can just load them. And if the module crash, we can just unload it and load it back. With same manner as in Server-Client architecture, but not with all modules as they are not so well separated from the rest of the OS as with the Server-Client architecture where servers are in user-space and the microkernel alone in the kernel-space.

But the Server-Client architecture has the good feature as well, what is the module can be moved to other OS version, without knowing what version of the microkernel there is running. So the module is not needed to be compiled again for specific kernel functions what with the Linux is needed to do.

So in the end, when the admin who has knowledge of compiling Linux OS (as they always do) and they have information of the hardware, they compile Linux with such manner that there is no single un-needed driver or function in Linux. And that makes it faster, more stable and more secure. But every time hardware is changed, you need to compile Linux again. But if you just swap broken hardware to new one, it is not problem. But changing a motherboard A to motherboard B is problematic.

The same thing applies to Server-Client OS as well. You can swap hardware as long as you have the hardware support with it.


What is Linux and GNU/Linux?
http://tinyurl.com/532kb8
http://tinyurl.com/mum9x
http://tinyurl.com/ngarn8
http://tinyurl.com/qhuhg
http://tinyurl.com/3uaq48

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 Re: Re: More proof based on Linux func

 
 by Shinmaru on: Sep 13 2010
 
Score 50%

This is very interesting(I'm regretting dropping from college) but mainly so long as you know what architecture is supported you may upgrade/change motherboards and such components as long as the kernel has the drivers for it, otherwise you will have to compile the kernel to support such hardware, this is new to me that we can compile the kernel and such.
I have a question(it's unrelated to the subject) if a software is needed to create another software how was the first software created?
Also I have found this comparison between MS and Linux: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Windows_and_Linux


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 Re: Re: Re: More proof based on Linux func

 
 by Fri13 on: Sep 13 2010
 
Score 50%

So you want to know if software B needs software A, how was software A made in first place?


What is Linux and GNU/Linux?
http://tinyurl.com/532kb8
http://tinyurl.com/mum9x
http://tinyurl.com/ngarn8
http://tinyurl.com/qhuhg
http://tinyurl.com/3uaq48

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: More proof based on Linux func

 
 by Shinmaru on: Sep 13 2010
 
Score 50%

yea, like if software A made software B, then what software made A?
My question is based due to that software could not be created without a hardware.

Ok while writing this question the answer came to me, and answer is Binary,
Binary is simply on & off which is a basic electrical for of communication, the same would Apply when one tries to create a software, basically software A was created from hardware which was created by man with the most basic form of communication which is binary, Morse code is the same as binary "10101001" all that was need to create was an interpreter.
I do not know how true this is but this was all from logical thinking, let me know if I'm right or wrong.


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 LOL

 
 by lostintheshell on: Sep 11 2010
 
Score 50%

No not Fri13 but other guy that thinks gnome-look.org is full of bunch of idiots. While he can't read that this is the group for ppl believe Linux is an OS not just a kernel.


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 Re: LOL

 
 by Shinmaru on: Sep 11 2010
 
Score 50%

Lol, it's not a belief if it's a fact, the ones believing otherwise are the others that think this it is NOT an OS, simply because they can't understand how an OS operates.


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 Re: Re: LOL

 
 by lostintheshell on: Sep 11 2010
 
Score 50%

Yeah you got the point, he's simply not belong to this group. :-)


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 :-)

 
 by farizluqman on: Nov 29 2010
 
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farizluqmanfarizluqman
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Linux kernel development was done on a MINIX host system. Linux is a kernel for itself to be used by the family of Unix-like computer operating systems such as Fedora etc.

Linux itself cannot work without a sort of command. Also you should know that even Windows 7 is based on MS-DOS 6.1.7600. so that's why Linux kernel is updated monthly or even weekly to ensure the stability of it's host OS.

This is Linux :-)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Linux-x86-under-qemu.png


Everybody loves Windows, yeah, everybody loves it because of its fresh air, and hell, I love my door also...
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 Re: :-)

 
 by Fri13 on: Nov 30 2010
 
Score 50%

That does not change at all that Linux is monolithic kernel == operating system. Linux architecture does not change mystically from monolithic > server-client when it starts running other software.

Windows 7 does not have MS-DOS on it at all.

MS-DOS series is dead, last version went away with Windows 95 when MS-DOS operating system parts were replaced by some of the Windows 95 parts.
Since Windows 95 the next generation of the MS-DOS has been Windows 9x series. (95, 98, 98SE, ME) what partically used MS-DOS code but in very different manner.

NT is the operating system in Windows 7. It the version number of the NT in windows 7 is 6.1. There is no MS-DOS at all in the Windows 7 or any earlier NT series as NT and MS-DOS/9x were totally different OS series.

NT 3.1
NT 3.5
NT 3.51
NT 4.0
NT 5.0 (Windows 2000) <- rebranding starts to hide the NT OS
NT 5.1 (Windows XP)
NT 5.2 (Windows Server 2003, 64bit edition, Home server)
NT 6.0 (Windows Vista/Server 2008)
NT 6.1 (Windows 7/Windows Server 2008 R2)

NT operating system has been used in Windows since 1993 to today.
It went trough very big change in project MinWin on what results you can see in Windows 7.

The NT operating system got next generation at 6.0 version. Thats why the hardware and software compatibly as well changed so much in Windows Vista.
Windows 7 can use same drivers and software as Windows Vista from many reasons, one is that the NT API/ABI were same and it did not change. In Project MinWin they only ripped NT operating system to bare bones, simply removed all the code what does not belong to the OS. They got NT so small and effective that it demands so much less hardware than earlier NT what were giants with their depencies.

Security has as well rised a lot when the NT has only OS parts and non-OS parts were ripped off, like IE browser parts and so on.

And since MinWin project they can actually now build NT operating system separately from rest of the Windows system.

Same way as Linux and all other Unix or Unix like operating systems has been designed and developed, separately from the system programs, system libraries, application programs and so on.

Linux does not need any other software to work. All other software top of it needs it to work. The dependencies goes from top to down, not from down to top (as it did in Windows before MinWin project).


What is Linux and GNU/Linux?
http://tinyurl.com/532kb8
http://tinyurl.com/mum9x
http://tinyurl.com/ngarn8
http://tinyurl.com/qhuhg
http://tinyurl.com/3uaq48

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 Re: Re: :-)

 
 by farizluqman on: Dec 1 2010
 
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and so the NT is the kernel, and the 7 is the host os..


Everybody loves Windows, yeah, everybody loves it because of its fresh air, and hell, I love my door also...
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 Re: Re: Re: :-)

 
 by annulen on: Dec 1 2010
 
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>and so the NT is the kernel, and the 7 is the host os..

Just because you cannot wipe all bullshit out of it (thnx Microsoft)


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 Re: Re: Re: Re: :-)

 
 by farizluqman on: Dec 1 2010
 
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So, glory Windows NT!


Everybody loves Windows, yeah, everybody loves it because of its fresh air, and hell, I love my door also...
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 Re: Re: Re: Re: :-)

 
 by Fri13 on: Dec 1 2010
 
Score 50%

NT is not the kernel.
NT is the operating system
The NT is Server-Client architectured operating system what use un-named microkernel.

As for repeat, the microkernel what is in NT, does not have a name but just version number. Once one NT developer told me how to find it out but I do not anymore remember how (no, it is not the ver command) .


What is Linux and GNU/Linux?
http://tinyurl.com/532kb8
http://tinyurl.com/mum9x
http://tinyurl.com/ngarn8
http://tinyurl.com/qhuhg
http://tinyurl.com/3uaq48

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 Re: Re: Re: :-)

 
 by Fri13 on: Dec 1 2010
 
Score 50%

NT is the operating system (server-client architecture) and the "7" is the Windows 7 what is the software system and it includes the NT operating syste, all the system programs and libraries. And all other softwares like Aero, IE, Media Center, WMP, mediafiles, etc.

If the Windows 7 is the car, the NT is the car engine. And the car engine is always the operating system.

You can swap the engine to other cars if wanted, but it does not morph the engine to other engine. Even that if you take one engine from BMW and you place it to Mercedes-benz.

To get the car engine analogies to better context. You need to think that the car engine is the component what rules what kind steering wheels, gear sticks, seats, mirrors you can have. What kind car body you can use. What roads you can use, what gasoline stations you can use. Do you get the engine hood open or not. Can you modify the engine or even the car at all. The engine would even rule that what radio stations you can listen.

The engine would became the most important thing in the whole world because traffic designs what people would make to get from A to B.

That is the case with operating systems. They rule what software and what hardware you can run. If the software is not ported for the OS, you do not run it. If the OS is not ported to the CPU architecture, you do use the hardware.
If the java is not ported to the OS, you can not run any java applications.
If the software what your software has depencies does not have ported to wanted OS, your software does not work either.

And after all that, mix it with the open/closed source ideas, all the time changeable software versions and so on. It is just so big jungle that finding a path between it is so hard that you do not even want to know what you might miss or if there could be easier way to to trough it.


What is Linux and GNU/Linux?
http://tinyurl.com/532kb8
http://tinyurl.com/mum9x
http://tinyurl.com/ngarn8
http://tinyurl.com/qhuhg
http://tinyurl.com/3uaq48

Reply to this

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 Good Stack Chart

 
 by adsicks on: Nov 30 2010
 
Score 50%
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Here is a good stack chart of an X Windows implementation...I assume the kernel is the powerhouse at the base (notice the base is 'Base Operating System' (kernel + kernel modules?)...

http://www.enlightenment.org/p/about/d/diagram-efl-simple-small.png


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 Re: Good Stack Chart

 
 by Fri13 on: Nov 30 2010
 
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They have left the OS very widely open as it is just easier to direct to OS "there it is" way when you do not need to explain what kind OS it is.


What is Linux and GNU/Linux?
http://tinyurl.com/532kb8
http://tinyurl.com/mum9x
http://tinyurl.com/ngarn8
http://tinyurl.com/qhuhg
http://tinyurl.com/3uaq48

Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Good Stack Chart

 
 by adsicks on: Dec 1 2010
 
Score 50%
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I guess to put the chart in the context of Linux, lets consider the boot order. The kernel runs init. X11 is started from init...to say Linux is a kernel or an OS seems silly to me. The Linux kernel is the OS kernel, or the bare minimum needed for operating the hardware...blah, blah, blah...
Linux is an OS Kernel
Gentoo, Fedora, etc are implementations of the kernel with supporting OS extentions...
X11, KDE, Gnome are Windows Managers for GUI level...
This whole thing is like aguing that kernel32.dll is a library file or an OS file, when it is an OS library file. Really it is like saying a car starter is not a motor...think about that one...


The box said Windows Vista or better so I installed Sabayon 5...
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 Re: Re: Re: Good Stack Chart

 
 by annulen on: Dec 1 2010
 
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>I guess to put the chart in the context of Linux, lets consider the boot order. The kernel runs init.

You can run shell or any other program instead of init (use "init" parameter of kernel). Started process(es) will be able to use all capabilities which OS is expected to have


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 Re: Re: Re: Good Stack Chart

 
 by Fri13 on: Dec 1 2010
 
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INIT is first non-OS process what is started. If you do not replace INIT with something else what meets user/device purposes.

Monolithic OS does not have a GUI, it does not have a command interpreter, it does not has system programs or system libraries.

OS is just very small part of the software system but it is most important part of all the software. It allows multitasking, secure program execution, resource management etc.

And your car analogy is weak. The starter motor is not part of the internal compustion engine (what people simply call car engine).
Neither is bootloader part of the OS, it just start its execution but after OS is executed, it takes control and does self-check and starts first process (usually INIT or variant) what then starts to read commands (scripts) what to do next and OS just operates that all the processes gets executed correctly by CPU.

The bootloader can be a smart (like GRUB) what can read different filesystems and find the OS from correct directories.
Or it can be a simple one (like LILO) what does not know anything about filesystems or directories, but only knows what blocks it need to read (where OS is) to RAM and then execute it.

Difference on those is that everytime the OS is updated (or moved on disk), the LILO needs to be updated so it has correct blocks in it.
GRUB does not need any updating.
OS does not start if someone does not start its execution. In embedded systems the firmware in hardware usually does it as there is no need for bootloader at all. But in personal computers and servers you usually need bootloader as BIOS/EFI does not know how to start OS execution or where it is at all. They only know how to read first 512 bytes from the media where they expect to find a bootloader. That in simple way.

And same thing is/was with car engines.
First you needed a person to twist the crank to get the engine itself started.
I bet you have seen at least movies where people flip airplanes propelles to get engine started or cranking in front of the car. Or even today if your car battery is emtpy and the electronic starter motor does not start, you can get your engine started by pushing the car (not possible on all models like CAT cars).

The starter motor is definetly not part of the engine. Neither is the car battery or windshield wiper part of the car engine, even that they (partically) are located to same space as the car engine.

The internal combustion engines work totally fine without starter motor or anything else. But the car purpose is flawed or not possible. The car purpose is to get people and gear moved and not to have engine running. The people needs car, car needs wheels, engine and other things. But car engine does not need wheels, gears or car radio to work.


We use today computers for many things. When we want to do something with computer we need first the hardware (monitor, keyboard, mouse, printer, scanner) and we need software (Application Programs) as those are the tools what we use.
We watch the monitor (text or graphics), we write by typing keys. We get text or graphics out with printer, we digitalize physical material to computer with scanner etc etc.

But to get all kind that working, we need lots of other things. Normal users do not know what is CPU or RAM. What is difference between RAM and SSD and how does those work.

Neither does normal users know what is the operating system, what is system library, what is system program, command interpreter or application programs and how those all work together.

Same way as many drivers does not know how the car works and what parts are for what purposes. Even some does not even know how to fill the gasoline/diesel tank or how to change the tire. Even more people have never even opened the engine hood. They have no idea how to change oils or even check the oils. Many does not even know how many volts does car engine have and so on.

But even if 90% of people does not know how the devices (or vehicles) work, it does not allow to lie people about it just to sell them more stuff (software or hardware etc). Neither it does not make the technology simpler or change technology to another kind when the user is basic, advanced or engineer.

The car engine functions does not get changed when the driver is race driver or when it is a homewife with three kids with her.

The operating system functions does not get changed when the user is secetery or when it is pro geek/engineer.

The car engine does not morph as wheel and pedals when the house wife drives the car.

The operating system does not morph as office suite or web browser or desktop when secetery use the computer.

The point is, the operating system technology has not change since 1960's. Operating systems have been coded better way, they has more features (API/ABI etc) than ever and many features has been improved. But the operating systems has not being morphed to system libraries, system programs, shellsm graphical user interfaces or application programs.

The amount of the software in the computer has grown, but the operating system functions has staid same. We have more complex application programs, we have fancier and easier software what draws users the interface to interact with the computer. Just to make our life easier.

Linux is by design monolithic what is the first and original operating system architecture. The roots for that architecture is from Multics from early 1960's. Even today many operating system is monolithic, but littlebit over half of the operating systems seems to be a server-client. And the Server-Client architecture design is somewhere early 1980's. It is almost 20 years newer than monolithic architecture.

And today, the other is almost 50 years old architecture while other is almost 30 years old architecture.

The operating systems what use those architectures, follows the same basic functions and designs as almost 50 and 30 years ago. The technology has not changed, it has just evolved to better and more secure.

Comparing Linux to Multics is like comparing i386 (the CPU for what the Linux was designed) and Intel Core i7.

The principles are same, the architecture is same but design has evolved. More cores, more cache and overall more complex by anyway.

The CPU has not changed from the silicon chip to whole computer case.

Neither has operating system changed from the monolithic or server-client architectures to whole software system. Even that software systems are marketed as operating systems. But it is not based to anykind computer science.


What is Linux and GNU/Linux?
http://tinyurl.com/532kb8
http://tinyurl.com/mum9x
http://tinyurl.com/ngarn8
http://tinyurl.com/qhuhg
http://tinyurl.com/3uaq48

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Good Stack Chart

 
 by adsicks on: Dec 1 2010
 
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Zacher Network Solutions
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Jeff Zacher 2

Zacher Network Solutions
United States of America, Portland, ME
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As annulen points out, the kernel can run on its own, and use a variety of shells...in fact, the kernel can be configured to run shells across a network, which is a key feature of the Unix OS (and Linux is a port of Unix)...Technically, GRUB is an OS...my point w/ the starter bit, is that a starter is a motor, the engine is a motor also...the box fan in my window has a motor...
Just because you have a 351 Cleveland, doesn't mean you don't have a V8...I think of Gentoo as Ford and Red Hat as Chevy, just different implementations of the V8 engine. Just because the Voltage regulator is not built into the starter doesn't make either one any less of a V8...
Also, is init and OS or non OS process? Is a batch file in VSE an OS or non/OS process? When I took operating systems long ago, I was taught a batch file in VSE was a part of the OS...yet you still have VSE on your mainframe before you write any batch files....


The box said Windows Vista or better so I installed Sabayon 5...
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